Kayshia (00:01.058)
Hello, Dr. Steven Rogelberg. Thank you so much for joining me today on the Paradigm Shift podcast.
Steven Rogelberg (00:07.118)
Totally happy to be here. What a pleasure.
Kayshia (00:10.498)
Yeah, I mean, you are on the frontier of the science and the art of meetings. And with your new book, I just want to talk about the powerful transformation of one -on -one meetings since you are the guru here. Can you share your perspective on why one -on -one meetings are so critical to the success of individuals and teams and
Maybe there's some sort of a finding in our field that underscores the potential to change dynamics that way.
Steven Rogelberg (00:40.59)
Yeah, that's great. Perfect question to start. Thank you for that. So basically our days are filled with one -on -one encounters. Like we're always talking to people. But when I talk about a one -on -one meeting, I'm talking about something different. I'm talking about something that's regular, scheduled, predictable. And these are one -on -ones between a manager and their people. The manager is facilitating and orchestrating it, but it is not for them. It is not for them. It is for their people.
Kayshia (01:07.01)
Yeah.
Steven Rogelberg (01:09.838)
It is for their people to be able to express what's on their mind, their concerns, their challenges, and for the manager to say, tell me more and how can I help? These meetings are really designed to truly see, to truly see your people. And this is what everyone's hungry for right now, right? With COVID, the pandemic, it wasn't about just coming into work that we miss. It was just meaningful interactions, especially with our managers.
Okay, so that's what it is. Now, in terms of when managers do these things, as I described, there's a lot of data that discusses the outcomes of it. And I'll share some quick facts around it. But really, if you stop and reflect, stop and reflect about a time when someone who had more power than you took a genuine interest in you and how it affected you, right?
Kayshia (01:40.258)
Hmm.
Kayshia (02:06.722)
Mm.
Steven Rogelberg (02:09.55)
It gets into our blood. It motivates us. It excites us. It gives us a sense of connection and commitment. And this is what we see when managers are doing this with their people. The results, the research is really profound that managers that are carrying these out, employees report nearly three times as much engagement, employee engagement on the job than those that don't. Teams are better able to meet.
their goals because they're more aligned. We've all heard the adage that people don't leave bad jobs. They leave bad bosses. Well, one -on -ones are the opportunity to prove you're not a bad boss. And so we would expect greater retention, which is also in the data. And then the surprising bit is that these one -on -ones, while you're investing time, actually make you time. And what we found, and this was, I think, kind of,
Kayshia (02:48.034)
I'm so happy.
Steven Rogelberg (03:06.67)
A nice surprise that basically when managed, we're doing these more predictably. They reported actually having less interruptions throughout the week, right? Because people would save their issues and topics for those one -on -one. So managed were able to get more into flow. Furthermore, to the extent that your team is aligned to the extent that your team members have clarity and support. They're able to do their job better.
And managers are evaluated on the basis of their people. So if your people are thriving, it's only good for you. So in so many ways, you know, I could say, yeah, we're making the case for one -on -one meetings, but in so many ways, I'm not, it's not a choice. This is what good managers do. And this is where leadership happens. And you can flip the equation a little bit. Imagine if you don't do these things.
Well, our behaviors are constantly signaling who we are and what's important to us. If we choose not to do these, what signals are we sending to our people? Right? We're sending the signal that at the end of the day, they don't really matter all that much, that they are just cogs in this bigger wheel. And that's not ultimately very motivational.
Kayshia (04:25.314)
there's so much to unpack there. And a couple things that I heard you say right off the bat was just like this insatiable need for meaningful human interaction and how that's grown over the past few years. But that dynamic that you surface, I think is really an important reflection is like when was the last time someone like a manager had taken some interest and really shown interest and express interest in you and
What I hear all the time is, there's not enough time. But what I hear you say is, it actually saves you time, right? So usually the resistance points when I speak to managers is, there's not enough time or that's gonna take more time. And usually I say, well, how many people do you have on your team? Because that's another characteristic to look at. A contributing factor is, is your span of influence too large? But what I'm hearing you say is that less disruptions occur.
Steven Rogelberg (05:13.39)
Yeah.
Steven Rogelberg (05:18.35)
Mm -hmm.
Kayshia (05:21.922)
when we're in flow, when we have that cadence and we have that rhythm together as a team. So what I'm hearing we don't wanna do is gloss over those one -on -one meetings and we certainly don't want to cancel them, right? And just make it business as usual. We wanna be really intentional with that.
Steven Rogelberg (05:40.206)
Yeah. Yeah, the intentionality is such the great word. The yeah, I mean, it's if you have a large span of control, it doesn't mean you shouldn't do these. It just means that you should spend less time with each person to make it work. But, you know, this this whole issue of not having enough time to me is a straw man.
Kayshia (05:57.538)
Yeah.
Steven Rogelberg (06:08.27)
Because it just means that you're spending maybe time on things you shouldn't be spending time on. When we think about the amount of time it takes to replace a good employee,
It's unbelievable, right? It's a huge amount of time. You have to get, you have to find the person, you have to onboard the person, you have to help assure their success. Well, that's a time that we forget that we're investing. If we can keep our top talent, those are, that's all time saved. So one -on -one for just that mechanism for making sure that we are fully, you know, elevating, supporting,
Kayshia (06:38.306)
Yeah.
Steven Rogelberg (06:48.718)
Retaining, engaging our teams and yeah, we benefit. And then there's even another subtle benefit, which I think is kind of interesting. So while managers doing these things are probably the best single professional decision they can make. It's also the best personal decision they can make. Namely, one of the greatest predictors of life satisfaction is helping of others. One -on -one meetings are your opportunity to help others.
Kayshia (07:04.994)
Mmm.
Kayshia (07:15.362)
yeah.
Steven Rogelberg (07:18.958)
And by doing it, you're ultimately helping yourself.
Kayshia (07:24.93)
Absolutely. I love how you reframe and flip the script a little bit there. I mean, just if you were to do a simple cost benefit analysis, like to your point, it makes a strong business sense. And we're in a culture of like instant gratification. And if I don't see that tangible outcome right away, then I might not subscribe to it. But to your point, like,
the cost of finding a new good quality talent. It only takes you one or two times of losing a good employee before you start to think differently about how you interact with your employees and how intentional you are. But speaking about time, I think it would be interesting to talk through a little bit around the optimal frequency and duration of different one -on -one meetings because there is that need to balance that interaction with an employee and...
Steven Rogelberg (08:04.174)
Yeah, you're right.
Kayshia (08:19.362)
Also, there's a risk of over -meeting potentially that managers might be concerned. How much is too much? How little is too little? Let's talk about that.
Steven Rogelberg (08:22.478)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. That's great. Great question. So first, I mean, as you as I know, you know, the so the book is really designed to lay out so many choices for managers. It's not prescriptive, though. It doesn't say you need to do this and then this then that it says here are a variety of choices that are aligned with the science. And now you have to choose. You have to choose based on who you are and who your people are.
And that's why the book is the art and science of one -on -one meetings. So the science suggests that the optimal frequency is every week or every other week. Every week had the most positive gains because it builds momentum. Think about a relationship we're fostering. It could be with anyone.
You know, it's we're going to do better creating a meaningful relationship to the extent that we are interacting and engaging with that person on a more regular basis.
Sorry. And so ultimately, when it's too far, when we meet monthly with people, we don't build the momentum. And we tend to just suffer from a recency effect, right? Where we talk about what's just happening now, and we're losing all that time. And so that one to two weeks, and interestingly, when we did a survey of people, what their preferred cadence was, that was their preferred cadence.
Kayshia (09:35.731)
Sorry.
Steven Rogelberg (10:03.918)
So here we have a situation where the preferred cadence is actually the cadence that resulted in the most positive outcomes for the team and the organization. That's kind of nice when that works out.
Kayshia (10:15.251)
Absolutely. So it sounds like there's a little bit of a, it varies like case by case or individual by individual or maybe, you know, manager manager employee. I like to do what I call audits with my employee every so often, maybe once a quarter, every couple of months to just understand is this cadence working? I want to...
Steven Rogelberg (10:36.558)
Yeah.
Kayshia (10:37.139)
audit with you and see how well am I doing with my cadence? So let me just share with you a little bit about what I'm using. So currently I have one direct report and what we do is we utilize our one -on -ones in the beginning of the week to kind of talk through priorities that are upcoming, anything that needs to be unblocked that are challenges. And then at the end of the week, we have what are called
update. So it's a tool through our performance management platform that gets sent out to the employee automatically on my behalf and asks the employee to kind of do a couple things. You know, what are some of the things that you experienced that were wins this week, your accomplishments? What are some challenges that you had or still have? What are things that are upcoming to kind of get them to think about week and close that week out?
Steven Rogelberg (11:31.31)
Mm -hmm.
Kayshia (11:33.971)
When they submit that, it helps me prepare for that one -on -one next week. And it also helps my employee feel like they're closing out a successful week. Now that's worked for us. And the update doesn't require a significant time or effort on both parties. And so just curious, how does that sound?
Steven Rogelberg (11:51.694)
Yeah. Sure. I like it. It's certainly aligned with the science. The only feedback I would share would be in those Monday meetings to make sure that you're also mixing up the questions that are asked. That it's often like I had this CEO.
tell me that, listen, I had the greatest question in one -on -one meetings. I ask it all the time. And he told me what it was. And I said, okay, that's a great question. Do not ask it again. And he goes, why? And I said, well, if you're asking it every single time, it has no more meaning, right? It doesn't, it's not interesting. And you go back to any relationship. Imagine if every single time you talk to your partner or a friend and they literally just ask the exact same thing.
Kayshia (12:30.771)
So he was absolutely every.
Kayshia (12:36.819)
Thank you.
Steven Rogelberg (12:50.03)
That's going to prevent the relationship from really growing and for you understanding a broader constellation of issues. So while I don't know the things that you talk about in that Monday meeting, all I would encourage you is just make sure it's a little bit diverse over time that maybe there's a set of core questions, but then you rotate some other stuff, you know, and make sure that the content is both short -term and long -term. Make sure the content is about the individual, the team.
or the organization. Make sure the content can be personal about that person's growth and careers, but also their challenges and obstacles. So as long as you can create a diversity of experience, I love what you're talking about. I love how you have this plan that just keeps supporting each other and fits nicely into a good work cadence.
Kayshia (13:44.755)
Yeah, I think selfishly it benefits me going back to what you had said, like it supports and benefits the manager. I think this as well does for me because that employee is helping me kind of think through things that I need to be thinking about from a macro level, not just micro. I love the idea of talking through the individual, the team and the organization as a whole. So you're not losing that big picture thinking.
Steven Rogelberg (14:12.142)
Mm -hmm.
Kayshia (14:12.947)
And you're also building those critical thinking skills, connecting dots to what the employee is doing. So in terms of balancing, okay, so content of meetings, we talked a little bit about that. I shared a little bit about what I do in my process, but what about the topics that managers like on a weekly or bi -weekly could include or would be best to optimize their one -on -one? So.
we're talking productivity versus development and relationship building. It's a lot to fit into a one -on -one. How do they do that?
Steven Rogelberg (14:43.022)
Mm -hmm.
Steven Rogelberg (14:51.086)
Well, so no one -on -one should have everything. You know, it gets overwhelming. But again, just like in any relationship, you know, it's just, it's a journey and different topics are talked about at different times. There's certainly a variety of things that could be talked about. And one of the things that we know from the research is that these one -on -one meetings do need a lightweight agenda. And that ultimately, optimally, the direct report should really drive it.
Either they drive the agenda or they do it in direct collaboration with the manager. So that goes along well with the philosophy that this meeting is not for the manager, it's for the direct. So the more involved they are, the better. Then in terms of the actual lightweight plan, so there's two general approaches. And we kind of touched upon this core question approach. And the core question approach are very broad questions. And while the manager is asking them, the questions are so broad that the employee can take it any way they want.
So they are still really driving the content of the conversation. They're not narrow questions. And then the manager just needs to keep these questions fresh over time. They need to ask their people, what core questions would you like for us to have? There's an alternative approach. And the alternative approach is a listing approach. And the listing approach, the manager tells their people, listen, I want to make sure this meeting captures and touches upon the things that are important to you. So come to this meeting with a list, a list of topics or questions that
you want to broach. But when you create that list, make sure that you think short term and long term. Think about you personally, think about your work, think about the team, think about the organization. And we need to prompt them that way. Otherwise, they're going to create a list of things that they think you want to hear. And so we want to prompt them to think more broadly. And then they come into the meeting with a list. And then you can kind of work down that in the in the the of priority. So both of those approaches are super easy.
And I think, you know, you can do a combination of the both, right? So have some core questions that the employee shares. And then another time use the listing, you know, just keep it fresh and interesting. And again, like going back to the analogy that we can all relate to in a friendship, we want it to seem a little different, right? If it's always the same, it looks performative. But if we kind of diversify it a little bit, then.
Steven Rogelberg (17:15.854)
that connective tissue really matters. And I do, I want to go back though, I don't want any of your listeners to say, wow, we're just trying to make people happy and have better relationships. Like that's not it. That's just part of it. But this is just, we're in this great situation where bringing more humanity to work is actually good business.
Kayshia (17:27.277)
Okay.
Kayshia (17:36.749)
Absolutely. And, and yeah, so it works out for everyone. It's really a win -win. And what does the science say? I'm curious about the right environments for a meeting, like in terms of hybrid versus virtual versus, you know, in person, is there any science around that dictates kind of like that atmosphere?
Steven Rogelberg (18:00.75)
We don't have science on which location actually yielded a better one -on -one meeting, but we do have science around what people prefer. And the highest rated location was actually doing one -on -ones in the manager's office. The lowest rated location was doing it in the employees space. Conference room was also quite high. Taking walks, meeting at coffee shops, the support for those were more bimodal. Some people
loved it and other people hated it. And so in all these cases, it's a good argument for just asking the direct, where would you like to do this? And that's again, a signal, right, that they have voice in all this. With regard to virtual versus face to face, there's a slight preference for face to face. But in many regards, it doesn't matter. Both seem to work. You know, those those who are remote, they still like the idea of
occasionally having a face -to -face, but they were really happy with virtual too, you know in so many ways it's not about the locations about how those minutes are spent and when the manager is truly asking the right questions and truly listening and saying tell me more and offering support and Feedback when asked all those things Right. It's the quality the of the conversation that's gonna
ultimately drive the success.
Kayshia (19:30.157)
Right. And so what I am hearing is you can have a really quality conversation in 15, 20 minutes.
and be really effective. It doesn't need to be an hour long meeting, for example, for it to be effective. It's that intentionality, as we said earlier, that really matters. And I think it's validating to hear that some of the skills that you're talking about managers showing up with in these one -on -ones really support effective one -on -one meetings like coaching, giving quality feedback, activism.
Steven Rogelberg (19:46.158)
Mm -hmm.
Steven Rogelberg (20:06.606)
Mm -hmm.
Kayshia (20:07.981)
These are skills that we personally bring into our organization to upskill our managers capabilities around. And I feel like that's a great validation that they align well with the art and science of one on one things.
Steven Rogelberg (20:14.894)
We're here.
Steven Rogelberg (20:23.31)
Yeah, yeah. You know the.
Steven Rogelberg (20:29.646)
During the Industrial Revolution, we did not think there was any value of elevating humans. And back then, it was really about command and control. Humans were just meant to be controlled. But we really evolved away from that because we learned that by engaging with people that they become more committed to the action. They persevere in the face of obstacles.
that we can get more innovation and creativity when we involve others. That when people are engaged, they actually provide better customer service. That when people are engaged, that they help each other more, that they're actually safer on the job. So there's so many things. So any type of tool that's designed to better engage your people and help them thrive is such good business. You know, it's rare when we can say that,
humanity is associated with competitive advantage. I love that. That makes me pretty darn happy. So, and you know, these, and you know, these one -on -ones, it really is about the quality of the minutes less than the quantity. So do what you can given your schedule, but just be fully present, you know, when you're, when you're having those minutes. The other thing in the book, I actually, I have a whole chapter designed to how, to help people figure out,
what to shed and to identify those meeting related activities in particular that they could decrease to better make time for this. And, you know, the sub tech, the subtitle for this book that I pondered that did not use, which is the one meeting that should never be an email. And that's what this is. This is the one meeting that should never be an email, but.
There are probably other meetings that you have that could be emails. So let's, let's figure out how to get rid of those to get you more time.
Kayshia (22:36.141)
Absolutely.
I have been driving the emphasis in our organization around meeting, like having a meeting philosophy, because I, going back to your first book, there's just so much time wasted on ineffective meetings. And so that goes hand in hand. And I know you and I are very familiar with the research, the positive outcomes, intangible and tangible with, you know, engagement and productivity and happiness of employees.
employees and on all of these things, but what do you say in the face of leaders or managers who still gloss over that when you bring that up or cite the research, the science in real life, in real time, they're saying, well, I just need to get things done. What do you respond? How do you respond to that type of?
approach when someone comes to you and you're trying to get buy -in for these effective meetings.
Steven Rogelberg (23:37.838)
Mm -hmm.
Steven Rogelberg (23:43.758)
I generally will frame it as a time savings activity and that what I'm trying to do is figure out a way of helping you get more time and that this activity is an investment that actually will make you time and then do that audit of their calendar to try to eliminate useless activities or time activities that they don't need to engage with as much.
You know, the.
We, there's so much time that we spend on things that we shouldn't be spending time on. It's just, it's just, we do. And we often don't spend on time on things that we should be spending time on. so I would just try to make this case that, and as I could, I mean, I can make it personal. Like I could say, think about a boss that you really thought very highly of. Think about how did it affect you?
and your connection to the organization. Like we have these stories, we know what it's like. So I can take a personal, I can take it that, you know, as, you know, question some of their assumptions, right? So as a manager, you are ultimately evaluated by the success of your team. So what are you doing to elevate your team and how can this be, you know, leveraged, you know, more effectively? So, I mean, we have a personal, you know, we have values that we ask people, what values do you have? there's going to be values that align perfectly with one -on -one meetings.
And they're just being a little repressed. The other thing is I challenge people to help to recognize that just saying you have an open door policy or that you're really responsive on email, like that's not the same thing. Now that's good. That's accessibility, but that's not the same. And again, we can all go back to relationships in our lives. A relationship is never going to grow if it's just, hey, my door's open. That's not how you.
Kayshia (25:28.045)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Steven Rogelberg (25:43.566)
and grow a relationship. And, but, you know, it's, I think it's also important for the manager to realize that it's not growing a relationship with the intent of, in a sense, making them happy. It's this idea that you have people that work for you. And to the extent that these people feel connected to the mission and the vision, it can have their obstacles, you know, help remove these barriers and blockers.
Like this is just good. This is just what people should do. so I don't think it's a hard case to make. Like it's, you know, if someone's really resistant to doing it, sadly, they're going to derail. Like you cannot be a successful manager, over time, if you're ignoring your people and not fully leveraging your people, it's a short sighted strategy. You know, I do plenty of coaching to, to know that when you're the people you're coaching, do not effectively engage with others. They're not going to make it.
And so there's that argument too.
Kayshia (26:45.709)
Right, like last resort is, should you be a manager, right? Like, I know it's kind of sound a little cold, but one of the the that I talk about in my organization is the difference between being an IC, an individual contributor and a manager is, an IC is focused on their own work, right? They're focused on what's on their plate. When you're a manager, it's not about you anymore. It's about your team. And so, it are...
Steven Rogelberg (26:49.23)
Ha ha ha ha!
Mm -mm.
Kayshia (27:13.389)
Are those things, those characteristics, those attributes, the environment of a manager, are those things aligning with your core personal values? And if not, then maybe that's a reflection point. I love hearing your perspective on this, just because I think there's always the naysayers, right? There's always the people that want to resist upfront, because we're humans, change is a little, you know, it's not something that we do naturally.
So I really appreciate you sharing that insight. And so as we kind of wrap up here, I guess I would just ask you have any advice for managers that are looking to take their one -on -one strategies and tailor it to their employees' unique personalities, for example, and get a little bit more niche. Maybe you have a personalized approach that you can share that's had a significant impact.
Steven Rogelberg (28:04.718)
Sure. When this initiative is rolled out or rebooted to folks, the best strategy is to tie it to values. You know, that because I don't want people to think this is some flavor of the month. And so I want them to know that this is you're doing this because this is who you are. And.
Kayshia (28:23.437)
Is this sorry, is this personal values or company values?
Steven Rogelberg (28:27.598)
both, but typically personal. but you know, I mean, the corporate values, you can easily find connections. There's always going to be mentions, but personal values can resonate a little bit more with, with your people. And so, yeah, so tying it to, you know, these personal values, you know, so if you tell your folks, so this going more directly to your question that, listen, I, I want to be the best manager I can be. And these are some of the values I hold.
And I want to act on them. And I'm going to, these one -on -ones are a mechanism for me doing that, but this is not for me. I want this to work for you. And given that I need your voice, I need your voice to help shape these things and make this truly work for you. I don't need it to look the same for each and every person because that's not maybe their needs. What you've described is not someone else's needs. so let's.
make some choices to start. But after we do a few of these, I need your voice again. And we're going to keep learning. And we're going to make these things work. And we're not going to complacent. So this is going to be an investment that we want to make sure that we are getting a great outcome from. And you share it that way, it reinforces the overall philosophy of these things, which I think is super helpful to the whole process.
Kayshia (29:54.509)
Absolutely. I am such a fan of taking some principles out of organization development, the field of OD and really applying that holistic whole systems approach, which means bringing everyone in the room, everyone that's being impacted. In this case, what I'm hearing you say is just ask your employee what their needs are. And if you have.
a trusting relationship, then that should be something that over time will culminate in some really positive outcomes. So thank you so much for sharing that. We have one final question on our podcast. Ask everyone. It's very quick. And the question is, what is your most recent paradigm shift that you've experienced, whether it's related to this work or anything else? Put you on the spot.
Steven Rogelberg (30:45.134)
so it's not a recent one, but I would say that, you know, as I enjoyed and was fortunate to experience more success, just the realization that I'm good and I need to make sure others can get to that exact same place where they're good. So the paradigm shift was really just.
you know, occurred maybe 10 plus years ago where my goal is just to focus on elevating others. And so I do a whole host of work with nonprofits, with homeless organizations, to try to help the human condition. And so the paradigm shift was just in my mind, more of an evolution that, you know, a different
points of time in our life, we're trying to do different things. But that ultimately, as you age, and you have less years ahead of you, you really do have to make that shift. And I know people struggle with that. I have great friends and colleagues that can't get out of the grind mindset. But for me, the paradigm shift is really clear that at the end of the day, the things that will ultimately matter are just how you have elevated.
the human condition.
Kayshia (32:12.525)
I can so appreciate that altruistic approach. Thank you for everything that you've done for our community and our field, our scientific field, organizational psychology, and for letting us learn from you. I mean, this has just been such a pleasure. I appreciate your time. Thank you.
Steven Rogelberg (32:29.198)
well, it's you did a great job. You display many of the characteristics of a great one on one leader. And, you know, I will say that, you know, folks definitely can check out the website. I know you'll post that steven rogelberg .com. And the thing I'll say around the book is all my royalties are all being donated to the American Cancer Society. So it's just really important.
to get this content out there. So I hope people will buy the book to learn more about one -on -ones or buy the book to help eradicate cancer. All those are great, but definitely check out the website and feel free to email me with any questions.
Kayshia (33:06.413)
Yeah, I think that brings up a question. If organizations want to purchase bulk in bulk for their managers, is that something that they can reach out to you and do on your website?
Steven Rogelberg (33:12.718)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I do a lot of that. So yeah, just they should just send me an email and my contact information is on that website.
Kayshia (33:20.653)
And it'll also be in the show notes for anyone listening or watching. Be sure to visit that. It'll have all of the details for contacting Dr. Steven Rowe. Thank you so much. Have a good one. Bye.
Steven Rogelberg (33:29.518)
You're welcome. Bye bye.
